Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/07/2000 05:15 PM House EDT
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
AND TOURISM
March 7, 2000
5:15 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative Norman Rokeberg
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Andrew Halcro
Representative Sharon Cissna
Representative Beth Kerttula
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gail Phillips, Chair
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 384
"An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development Task Force;
and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 384(EDT) OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 384
SHORT TITLE: ROAD DEVELOPMENT TASK FORCE
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/16/00 2214 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
2/16/00 2214 (H) EDT, TRA, FIN
2/16/00 2214 (H) REFERRED TO EDT
WITNESS REGISTER
ART GRISWOLD, Member
Deltana Borough Steering Committee
HC 60, Box 4493
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384.
AL ROIG
SR Box 274
Copper Center, Alaska 99573
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384.
JOHN WENGER
Kenney Lake Farm Bureau
HC 60, Box 280
Copper Center, Alaska 99573
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384.
RUTH McHENRY
Copper Country Alliance,
HC 60, Box 306-T
Copper Center, Alaska 99573
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384.
THOMAS B. BRIGHAM, Director
Division of Statewide Planning
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities.
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 00-4, SIDE A
Number 0001
ACTING CHAIR RAMONA BARNES called the House Special Committee on
Economic Development and Tourism meeting to order at 5:15 p.m.
Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes,
Rokeberg, Halcro, Cissna and Kerttula. Representative Dyson
arrived as the meeting was in progress.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES explained that Chair Phillips was unable to
be present because she was attending a meeting of the House
Finance Committee.
HB 384 - ROAD DEVELOPMENT TASK FORCE
Number 0069
CHAIR BARNES announced the first item of business, House Bill No.
384, "An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development Task
Force; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0119
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HB 384, version 1-LS1452\G, Utermohle,
2/24/00, as the working document before the committee. There
being no objection, it was so ordered.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG, sponsor of HB 384, opened his
presentation by declaring that the state has built almost no
roads in the past 30 years, and the primary underpinning of any
economic development in the State of Alaska is a good
transportation system of roads, railroads, airports, ports, and
related facilities. This is particularly important in rural
areas. He referred to previous testimony by the mining industry
concerning the need for opening access to known mineral deposits.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said HB 384 proposes establishment of a
short-term [one-year] task force representing the legislature
with representatives from throughout the state to look at the
prior plans for road development and the existing research on
them; identify those roads most important for the economic
development of the state; check their feasibility; determine
availability of funds to either develop or upgrade those roads;
and then establish a priority ranking for the projects and work
hand-in-hand with the Department of Transportation [and Public
Facilities] to find the money and do some road-building.
Number 0611
ART GRISWOLD, Member, Deltana Borough Steering Committee,
testified by teleconference from Delta Junction. He said the
Deltana Borough steering committee has a real interest in this
bill because it mentions the proposed road to the Pogo Mine.
However, he has questions concerning the membership of the task
force. He stated, "The 302 is listed as part of the committee,
but the Teamsters and Laborers were left out."
ACTING CHAIR BARNES advised Mr. Griswold that he did not have the
current work draft, which includes the International Union of
Operating Engineers as well as the Teamsters Union Local 959.
MR. GRISWOLD mentioned that the Associated General Contractors
are included, but what he does not see is any representation from
impacted areas except the appointments by the House and the
Senate for the undeveloped and developed road areas. He wondered
if one or two of the unions could be dropped out and more
representation provided for people who live in the impacted
areas.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES apologized, again saying it was apparent that
Mr. Griswold did not have the current work draft [Version G] of
HB 384 before him. The work draft on page 2 refers to one public
member jointly appointed by the president of the Senate and the
speaker of the House of Representatives, and it goes on to say,
"who resides in a rural area outside the area that is directly
connected to Anchorage by road."
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG told Mr. Griswold that the committee had
heard from the Pogo Mine developers that there seemed to be some
resistance among local residents to the idea of a year-round road
there, with perhaps somewhat less resistance to a winter road.
He asked Mr. Griswold what type of relationship he has with the
Pogo Mine people, and if he had any comments about that
particular project.
MR. GRISWOLD said the Deltana Borough Steering Committee is much
in favor of a permanent road. One of their members had just
returned from a trip to scout out alternative routes into the
mine. The steering committee looks at that area for future
development of the tax base for the borough. There are some
people in the Good Pasture (ph) area who want their property to
be maintained with access only by river or airplane. But the
Deltana Borough Steering Committee is looking at the economic
development of the borough, and hopes to see a permanent road and
another whole community developing in the area where the mining
and support facilities would be.
Number 1034
AL ROIG of Copper Center testified by teleconference from Kenney
Lake. He said he supports the formation of the task force. He
hopes that all past studies on the roads will be made available
to the task force. He cited the example of a road in progress
for 40 years, the Copper River Highway. He said the state has
done about 25 studies and that consultants and planners have made
a lot of money, but the road is still where it was in 1960. The
state has approximately $70 million invested in that highway and
owns all of the right-of-way. The legislature has passed the law
twice authorizing construction, and the law is still on the
books.
Number 1121
JOHN WENGER, Kenney Lake Farm Bureau, testified by teleconference
from Kenney Lake. He said, "Let's go for it!"
Number 1169
RUTH McHENRY, Copper Country Alliance, testified by
teleconference from Kenney Lake. She said it looks as if HB 384
is proposing a solution before it defines a problem. There is no
provision for the roadless area residents being consulted about
what sort of developments they want. House Bill 384 doesn't look
at solutions, other than roads, to development problems in those
areas. The task force is heavily weighted toward the
construction industry. There is only one person from a roadless
area, even though those people are going to be most affected.
She suggested that at least two people be appointed from the
roadless areas, at least one of whom should be a tribal
[representative]. She also suggested that there be an
environmental representative.
MS. McHENRY asked Representative Rokeberg why there would be a
road to Tazlina Lake.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that the roads listed were road
projects previously under consideration. The bill is endeavoring
to look at projects considered in the past and to prioritize
them. For example, if the task force found that there was little
reason or support for a road to Tazlina Lake, that project could
be given a very low priority or recommended for deletion from
consideration.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said there is no preconceived idea as to what
the affected communities might think about the roads listed.
Some of the communities might not want to have a road at all, and
she would expect that the task force would come back to the
legislature with a recommendation that those areas that do not
wish to have roads do not need to have them.
Number 1430
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO suggested that an environmental
representative is not necessary because any road project that is
decided upon and proceeds to the next step would have to go
through an environmental impact statement (EIS), and at that
point, representatives from the environmental community would
participate in the process.
MS. McHENRY said it would make sense to find out what the
environmental community thinks and involve all stakeholders as
[the task force proceeds] rather than waiting for an EIS, which
is going to be expensive.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said she had never known of a committee
hearing on roads or on anything else in which the environmental
community has an interest where they were not present and
testifying in full force.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said she thought Tom Brigham was in the
audience, and asked if the committee might hear from him.
Number 1594
THOMAS B. BRIGHAM, Director, Division of Statewide Planning,
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities (DOT/PF) said
that department has no position at this point on HB 384. He
observed that the bill refers to a general list of roads that
people have been considering for a long time. He pointed out
that about half of the roads listed are being analyzed as part of
DOT/PF regional transportation plans, and that DOT/PF would be
happy to share its information on those. He specifically
mentioned the Williamsport-Pile Bay Road, the Rock Creek Road in
Nome, and the proposed road from Wasilla to Bethel, saying that
there was some very interesting economic data available on those.
He said DOT/PF would be delighted to work with the committee and
the task force, and volunteered to be of support and to make all
data available to them.
Number 1779
Mr. Brigham said DOT/PF is approaching transportation in these
regions from a multi-modal point of view, whereas HB 384 clearly
suggests a pro-road or "roads leading to economic development"
philosophy. By contrast, DOT/PF has taken the approach of, "how
can transportation improvements benefit the economies and the
residents of these regions." Transportation could mean roads,
improved aviation, or improved marine transportation. The DOT/PF
looks at these different options and their cost-effectiveness.
Mr. Brigham added, "It's not an anti-road bias; it's not a pro-
road bias. We are trying hard to steer right down the middle and
say, what's going to make sense here from an economic
perspective, what would really pay off."
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said as she understands HB 384, if DOT/PF
convinced the task force that certain areas should remain
roadless, those propsed roads would either drop off the list or
end up at the bottom of the list.
Number 1895
MR. BRIGHAM gave an example of the agency's approach, citing the
prospect of significant development of coal, minerals, and other
resources in the northwest part of the state. Transportation has
been a stumbling block to development of those resources, but
building a road from Fairbanks may not be the best solution. A
road from the Ambler district to a port may do the job much more
cost effectively and meet the needs of the residents in that
area. The agency starts by looking at what can be of maximum
benefit to the state and can be realized cost-effectively.
Number 2022
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked him what other road had been built
other than the one from Portage to Whittier.
MR. BRIGHAM said the one built before that, in 1995-96, was the
road to Kasaan, a village with no road connection. The project
built new roadway that connected with a piece of Forest Service
logging road to provide road access to Kasaan. The folks in that
village were very thankful for it.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked what had been built before that.
MR. BRIGHAM said that was before his time at DOT/PF.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said there hasn't been any [other road
construction].
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG exclaimed, "I'm 57 years old and I've
lived in this state since 1946, and I can't remember in the last
three decades when a new road has been built in this state, and
I'm losing patience!"
ACTING CHAIR BARNES corrected her last statement, saying the only
other road built was the Parks Highway from Wasilla to Fairbanks.
MR. BRIGHAM mentioned the Dalton Highway.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said the oil companies built the Dalton
Highway, and after some years, the state assumed control of it.
It had not been proposed or built by the state.
Number 2159
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked when the Parks Highway had been
built.
MR. BRIGHAM said the final stretch that connected it all was
completed in the early 1970s, although sections were built prior
to that. He pointed out that many Forest Service roads built
throughout Southeast Alaska now are being upgraded.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said those roads were not built by the state
but by the logging companies.
MR. BRIGHAM mentioned the U.S. Forest Service and some other
road-building entities.
Number 2211
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA volunteered that the roads between Juneau
and Anchorage are in horrible condition.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES agreed, then added that she thinks it is the
fault of the road builders. She said the roads are much better
in Canada where the climate is similar to that in Alaska, and the
problem lies in the way that Alaskan roads are built. She blamed
that on the DOT/PF.
Number 2307
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked what DOT/PF considers when it looks
at [building] a road.
MR. BRIGHAM said, in a nutshell, one looks at the benefits
(including economic development) and the costs to the state. The
costs are what it costs to build (which includes some funding
from the federal government) and to maintain. He mentioned that
the amount of money available from the state for maintenance has
been decreasing.
Number 2361
ACTING CHAIR BARNES asked him to clarify what he meant by
maintenance.
MR. BRIGHAM said basic maintenance includes plowing, sweeping,
and pothole-fixing. He added, "When you tear up a big stretch of
road and resurface it, that can be done with federal dollars."
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said if DOT/PF did a better job of building
roads, those roads would not need so much maintenance.
MR. BRIGHAM said he was not the right person to ask about the
specifics of road construction and maintenance.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES continued, addressing permafrost and Canadian
road-building standards.
Number 2444
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked what DOT/PF considers in weighing
costs and benefits.
MR. BRIGHAM said the agency tries to look at broad, general
public benefits, such as linking communities in a way that people
in that area support. There also is private or investment
benefit that can benefit the public as well by creating jobs and
supporting the state and local economies. He mentioned the Red
Dog Road as an example of a road benefiting the local economy.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES said the road from the Red Dog Mine to the
port was not paid for by the state but by Cominco Ltd. and NANA
Regional Corporation, Inc., through bonds that they've been
paying back all these years.
MR. BRIGHAM said that to him, the Red Dog was a wonderful win-win
all the way around. The Alaska Development Association financed
the road and sold bonds, and the mining operation is paying back
that debt through operating revenues. The developers didn't have
to front-end it.
Number 2575
MR. BRIGHAM said that in the Northwest Plan, DOT/PF is looking at
the prospect of a road in the Ambler district to interconnect the
villages, access mineral development, and tie into a port. That
is a case in which there is both broad public interest and some
private economic interest that fits together, making it an
excellent candidate for a public road.
Number 2527
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the state is able to use federal
funding for gravel roads.
MR. BRIGHAM said that has been possible since 1991-92, and that
the state now can use federal funds to build very basic gravel
roads. Prior to that time, roads built with federal money had to
meet urban, primary road standards.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG wanted to know why the state isn't doing
more rural road-building with federal funds.
MR. BRIGHAM said the road to Kasaan was an example of that. Most
roads built in the Bush now are gravel roads, basic
infrastructure linking a village to its airport, landfill or
sewage lagoon. But the competition for the [federal] highway
funds makes it hard to get those roads built. He gave the
example of a road to Rampart on the Yukon River that has been
talked about for years. Rampart is solidly behind the project.
It would be a simple gravel or chip-sealed road, built to a
secondary road standard, 18-20 miles long. It is on the needs
list, but has not been funded because of competition from urban
areas that want to upgrade highways. He mentioned that DOT/PF's
current focus is on rebuilding a piece of the Glenn Highway each
year, bringing it from 1950 to current road standards.
Number 2894
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA referred to testimony she had heard from
the Department of Environmental Conservation about basic
infrastructure needed in the villages for health reasons. She
said it may be a bigger problem than she had realized providing
access to water and sewage facilities.
MR. BRIGHAM said a typical project will come to DOT/PF from a
village or borough accompanied by a village safe water project or
a public health service project. He said the agency's Bush
projects are almost all in direct support of some kind of public
health or safety project. The agency does very little in the way
of general village streets. The Bureau of Indian Affairs
typically handles those projects.
TAPE 00-4, SIDE B
Number 2973 [Tape numbers decline]
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said many road problems are not related to
the road surface, but have to do with drainage and adequate
insulation underneath them, particularly when crossing ice-rich
ground or permafrost.
Number 2955
ACTING CHAIR BARNES summarized that the committee had adopted a
work draft, had taken all of the public testimony, and had three
amendments to address.
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked Mr. Brigham which of the 18 road
projects listed in HB 384 have been formally studied.
MR. BRIGHAM said DOT/PF is working on nine of them now: projects
numbered 1, 3, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14, and 15. In addition, number 16
"is in the regular program." The other roads are in areas
outside the boundaries of the current regional transportation
plans.
Number 2854
ACTING CHAIR BARNES introduced Amendment 1, on page 3, line 12:
to delete "Delta" and insert "Richardson Highway"; to insert a
new subsection (19), "a road from Ruby to Takotna; and," and to
insert a new subsection (20), "a road from Takotna to Crooked
Creek."
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved adoption of Amendment 1 and asked
unanimous consent. There being no objection, it was so ordered.
Number 2820
ACTING CHAIR BARNES introduced Amendment 2, regarding task force
membership, on page 2, line 3: following subsection (7), to
delete "two public members jointly appointed by the president of
the Senate and the speaker of the House of Representatives," and
to insert a new subsection (7), "one member designated by the
Alaska Miners Association and one member jointly appointed by the
president of the Senate and the speaker of the House of
Representatives".
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved adoption of Amendment 2.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA objected and asked for clarification.
Number 2700
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he had brought the amendment before
the committee to improve the breadth of representation by
directly involving the Alaska Miners Association and the Native
community. He wanted to keep the task force at the same size [11
members] by deleting the two public members.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he thought the amendment had not
been drafted exactly as he had intended. He made a motion to
amend Amendment 2, replacing the remaining public member with a
person appointed by the Alaska Federation of Natives. There
being no objection, it was so ordered.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked for clarification regarding the
action just taken.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that the two public members had
been replaced by representatives of the Alaska Miners Association
and the Alaska Federation of Natives. He added that the task
force still included the public member from a rural area.
[Additional clarifying discussion followed, involving Acting
Chair Barnes, Representative Rokeberg and Representative Cissna.]
Number 2591
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said she objected to including the Alaska
Miners Association, which has a very specific interest, and asked
Representative Rokeberg if this was really a road task force or a
transportation task force. She said she could see some real
value in having a transportation task force.
Number 2420
Upon a roll call vote, Representatives Dyson, Halcro, Cissna,
Kerttula, Barnes, and Rokeberg voted in favor of Amendment 2.
Therefore, Amendment 2 passed.
ACTING CHAIR BARNES announced consideration of Amendment 3.
Number 2470
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA moved Amendment 3: on page 1, to delete
line 9, "(1) One member designated by the Alaska Association,
Inc."
Number 2372
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA then moved an amendment to Amendment 3:
deleting "two members appointed by the president of the Alaska
Federation of Natives." There being no objection, it was so
ordered.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA then moved a second amendment to Amendment
3: on page 2, following line 7, adding one member of an Alaska
environmental organization appointed by the governor; on page 2,
lines 12-14, rewording subsection (b) to add the Department of
Environmental Conservation to the nonvoting members of the task
force; and on page 3, line 15, bringing the total number of
members from nine to eleven. She said she was doing this because
fairness and a balance of representation are extremely important.
Number 2113
ACTING CHAIR BARNES asked if there were objections to the
amendment.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG objected.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA commented that having the environmental
input "up-front" and including that group at the table is going
to make the process a whole lot easier in the long run.
Number 2076
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked that the record show his opinion,
as the sponsor of HB 384, that the environmental community should
not be included the membership of the task force, because he
believes the environmental community has for the past 30 years in
Alaska endeavored to stop any economic development, and "the
whole purpose of this commission is to build roads."
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said conservationists have worked with
development projects in logging, oil and other industries.
"Obstructionist" is not a fair characterization. The development
of Alaska so that it meets the most needs and actually pays for
itself is terribly important. She said the reason she objects to
the truckers being included is that it might not be best to put
in a road, but rather an airport or a railroad.
Number 1856
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO objected, citing two reasons. First, the
people who know the highways best are the men and women of the
Alaska Trucking Association, Inc. If there is to be a road
development task force, there would be nothing better than to
have a representative from those who move the goods around Alaska
to give input on possible transportation corridors. Second, in
opposition to the environmental member, he thinks environmental
input is good, but DOT/PF is already looking at these roads, so
there already is input. This is a road development task force;
it's really not a transportation development task force.
Number 1730
ACTING CHAIR BARNES declared that the question before the
committee is Amendment 3.
Upon a roll call vote, Representatives Cissna and Kerttula voted
in favor of Amendment 3, and Representatives Halcro, Barnes,
Rokeberg, and Dyson voted against. Therefore, Amendment 3 failed
by a vote of 2-4.
Number 1716
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to move out of committee the
CS for HB 384, Version G [1-LS1452\G, Utermohle, 2/24/00], as
amended, with individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal
notes. There being no objection, CSHB 384(EDT) was moved out of
the House Special Committee on Economic Development and Tourism.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Special Committee on Economic Development and Tourism meeting was
adjourned at 6:30 p.m.
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